Speaker 1: 0:04

Welcome to Navigating the Abyss. We are Teri and Katherine, two necessarily trauma-informed moms who, through our own journeys, were inspired to become conscious parenting coaches. We are here to share our ongoing learning and insights in the hope of bringing some new perspectives and clarity for parents who might be on similar paths. We hope you'll join us.

Speaker 2: 0:36

So hello everybody. In this episode today, Catherine very courageously is sharing with me some recent difficult struggles with her own daughter's substance misuse. This includes how she's been dealing with her own sometimes overpowering fear and overwhelming emotions at times, and how she's been practicing both firm boundaries deep detachment, as well as learning how to see her daughter's possibility all from within the eye of the storm and we really hope you'll'll join us.

Speaker 2: 1:04

We do our best to hold these topics sensitively. Thank you for listening. Hey, catherine, there's plenty that I know that you want to share today, so you shared quite a lot with me already about what you've been going through in recent days and weeks with your daughter's mental health situation. I know we've talked a lot about substance misuse. We've talked a lot about recent events that have been really challenging, and I'm going to open up the floor to you to share a little bit as much as you feel comfortable with about recent events, as I know it's very heavy on your heart. So let me hand over to you and just share as much or as little as you need to yeah, thanks, terry, and thanks for making the space for me to share, and it's really helpful.

Speaker 1: 1:55

So, as I mentioned in my first podcast, my daughter struggled a lot over multiple years with substance misuse, which is is very tied, as is in most cases, with her mental health, her anxiety, depression, etc. And we didn't realize but she'd been using, I think, some harder drugs over the last couple months and it wasn't really clear because she was functioning and she did well in the classes and was pretty good at minimizing the chaos at home. And about a week and a half ago she overdosed and her father was there, thank God, and we had Narcan in the house, which is a critical antidote for opiate overdose, and he was able to administer that and she was taken to the hospital and so she was fine. So we've been dealing a lot now with coming to terms with what that means and also the epidemic of fentanyl on the streets and what that's meaning for our young people and how at risk they are and often how they being young I think your message to me was this is a whole new ballgame now, right you?

Speaker 2: 3:11

know, yeah, it's the kind of yeah on upper level for you guys and understand, yeah, but how serious this was becoming yeah.

Speaker 1: 3:21

Yeah, exactly. And so she came out. She was hospitalized for a number of days and, because her history, they were concerned about self-harm, and so they put her in a hold for a number of days. She's 18. And she came out and she articulated a desire to go to an intensive outpatient program and to try and, in her own way, address her addiction issues. So there've been some ups and downs with that and it's hard to know exactly what's going on. And we're kind of right in the middle of everything right now and I think what's been been really difficult is just, you know, the fear of of losing her, of, um, how high risk she is and how vulnerable she is.

Speaker 2: 4:15

All kids are that are experimenting with drugs when they're so lethal yeah, and it's connected as you are, and I know you are with your daughter and I know she shares with you so many things that you would imagine they would be hidden.

Speaker 2: 4:32

It leaves you with a sense, now that she's 18, that really where do you exercise autonomy over boundaries? But I think we're going to come to that. First and foremost, you're touching on the fear, and I know that anybody listening to this and me included you know, how are you managing, how are you coping with your fear? You know I see you and I feel you and I want to make sure that you have the space to be with yourself and it's just such a incredible thing to witness you in this process and I just wanted to honor that for a moment. But I also want to know how are you managing with all of your pain and your fear and the idea that, well, the worst may happen? You know, at any point we all feel that in different ways at different times with our children. But when you've got an example of this being right under your nose in the present, how are you coping? What are you doing with that fear? You know.

Speaker 1: 5:32

I think before my tendency was to not allow myself to feel fear, to be in denial about the fear. Um, because it was overwhelming. As I said, this has been going on for many years, and so now I recognize the need to feel the fear and to feel the emotions underlying that, and to to validate it and to let myself collapse if I need to, and it's not easy. No, because I've always been very strong, and so it scares me to collapse. It scares me, it makes me feel like that I'll implode and that I won't be able to come back out of it, and that it's so. It's a scary place too.

Speaker 2: 6:24

Scary place. So what's been your experience? What's happened when you have collapsed? What does happen for you?

Speaker 1: 6:29

um, I feel better feel better yeah, I mean that's, everyone has different experiences. But I find that when I allow myself to feel emotions and that they do pass and it's so much better than trying to hold things inside or to stuff them down, and there are times it feels overwhelming and paralyzing, but it does pass it does pass yeah it does pass.

Speaker 2: 6:57

The second rule isn't there. With emotions, if you feel them, for 90 seconds is the maximum you'll feel, if you really, really feel them. But yeah, seconds is the maximum you'll feel, and if you really really feel them. Yeah, if your default was to stuff those feelings down, what would that look like? I mean, do you just get busy? What is your go to Super?

Speaker 1: 7:14

busy, Right? You know I can multitask and do a lot and I'm competent and just keep going yeah and not think about yeah not allow myself to think or feel about what's really going on inside.

Speaker 1: 7:31

Yeah, I'm pretty good at that. Just, you know, keep going, keep going. And if I keep there's this sense. If I keep going and keep doing things and checking things off the list, and you know, as we talked about before, like finding resources for her and finding the perfect therapist and doing this and doing that, then somehow there's more likelihood of her being safe and healing right, okay and for me to manage to function.

Speaker 2: 8:00

It's interesting because I know that there's bound to be some people that are listening to this, that are bound to be some people that are listening to this that are going to be asking the question. Well, okay, so you can go away and you can feel all of those really heavy feelings. You're in this critical situation. It's very, very much right here, right now, right under your nose. So you might shift that emotion in you and you might feel better, but the situation situation still remains. But we're not trying to change anything. Here are we? Because we can't right. It's outside of our remit to change anything that our young people are going to be doing. So what does that mean for you? That you get to shift that emotion? Is there a sense of feeling stronger, feeling a little bit more resourced, and is there an element of being able to sort of acknowledge the autonomy of your child, the sovereignty that's a? There's a word that we use? Isn't there the sovereignty of your daughter in all of this and your own sovereignty, or does it feel different?

Speaker 1: 9:04

Yeah, I feel like when I allow myself to feel connected to however you want to describe it, I feel connected to a source of wisdom within myself. I don't feel so alone. I mean this may sound, you know, spiritual, but I'm very committed to my spiritual path and I feel connected to something else that gives me strength and gives me solace, and I also am better able to connect with my daughter and to engage because it's drawing on that source right, that well of wisdom, and not the outside panic and the need to control and the right which is the immediate reaction when, often, when it comes from something like this.

Speaker 2: 9:51

I'm getting a sense of space spaciousness in the whole situation from being so on top to maybe there being a bit more room for.

Speaker 1: 9:59

Yeah beautiful. And it's not all the time. I mean sometimes, as we were saying earlier, sometimes, you know, I do panic and my heart starts to beat and I want to scream and I want to find that Right, and that's OK. That doesn't mean that I'm doing things wrong or that I haven't learned to do things better. It's just I feel really emotional sometimes and it's okay for her to see that.

Speaker 2: 10:25

Yeah, you know what point are we being authentic and what point are we being inauthentic? Right, we can't pretend something other than we are. The point is, if that channel of communication and connections open between you, then the real message will be felt, the truth will be felt.

Speaker 3: 10:41

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 10:41

We can't yeah, defended and we were unable to do that. That. The, the wise communication, suffers that. You such a beautiful connection with your daughters another thing that I know people are going to be curious about. If you are okay that answer. Another question would just be around boundaries, the idea of boundaries, and I think you wanted to speak to this as well. You know, maintaining that connection in amongst all of this, is there such a thing as maintaining boundaries?

Speaker 2: 11:10

what does that look like when you're dealing with the situation so yeah we know other people will have very strong opinions of what boundaries that you should be setting or enforcing, or you that a real thing? What's your thoughts on that?

Speaker 1: 11:23

yeah, when I talk to someone who hasn't struggled with, uh, childhood mental health issues, and particularly with substance misuse and addiction issues, you know the first response is lock them up. They need to be protected from themselves, and that is considered totally reasonable, right, and? And I did that, we did that for many years. You know, as I've said, we did wilderness therapy, multiple therapeutic boarding schools, therapeutic farms.

Speaker 1: 11:51

I mean there was a lot of attempts to bubble wrap to protect and it has a role, right, because the brain's maturing and all of that, but ultimately they have to live their lives yeah they need and they need that and they have to have agency in their change and their transformation and their healing yeah it doesn't work otherwise no, and I heard you say she's come out of this and she said look, I want to do this outpatient program.

Speaker 1: 12:19

I want to make choices for myself she is, I mean she's, you know, and there's a lot of ambiguity with addiction, right, because the substances are meeting a need within her.

Speaker 2: 12:29

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 12:30

You know. But her behaviors make sense. It's not that she's just choosing to do this because she wants to be this rebellious kid and she thinks it's cool. I mean, there's always an identity, probably piece to it, but it's really about a need. It's meeting a need within her sobriety and yet she's exploring options yeah, right for her treatment and looking at what those might look like. And it's terrifying to allow her that time, yeah, to come to terms and to make a choice for herself, because you know the cost could be unthinkable and you're walking a very fine line. I don't know what the option would be right now, except for her to go through this, and what I think that's so important is the connection yes because the substances are meeting a need of, I think, in her case, of not feeling enough, not feeling seen.

Speaker 1: 13:33

Um, you know there's some attachment wounds and so letting her know that, even in the midst of this chaos and us not agreeing with her decisions, always that we accept her, yeah, that we accept who she is and that we love her unconditionally yeah and you listen to her, you hear her when she wants to speak.

Speaker 2: 13:57

I mean, what more can you do in that situation? And there is some distance between you right now, but yet the connection is so strong and she's 18 and she gets to choose. And I would argue I think it was Shivali that said you know, past the age of 11 or 12, you stop becoming your child's teacher. You just give them the space to evolve and exist. This is such a challenging situation for you to find yourself in, so for you to be experiencing this and you know, obviously, this particular episode as well.

Speaker 2: 14:36

I just want to share with people that you know we're very much in this process. Whatever your process is, if you're listening, we're very much in this process. So nobody ever wins, nobody ever gets out, nobody comes out the other side unscathed. You know we gathered some tools, we've got this far, we're in this. Now Catherine's going through this in this moment. It's real, it exists. It's a privilege to be able to just hear you share so openly, so vulnerably, with a view to helping and supporting other people, but you're very much in the process and very much trying to manage a really sensitive situation.

Speaker 1: 15:19

I can't imagine anything much more challenging than this trying to maintain connection when your child is doing everything that you would wish that they weren't yeah, like I said, the connection is first allowing her agency, encouraging her agency, and you know there's lots of different techniques around open-ended questions open-ended questions. Right, tell me right well asking her, you know. So what do you think is going to be helpful for you? What do you need? How did you feel after this happened? Right, are there any lessons for you? What do you need?

Speaker 1: 15:54

How did you feel after this happened? Are there any lessons for you? What is clarity for you? What does that look like? Just conversations to get her to think, and let her know that I don't pretend to have the answers, and so I think that role is helpful, and there are boundaries, though, so in terms of, for example, money.

Speaker 2: 16:11

Ah, yes, okay though, so in terms of for example, money.

Speaker 1: 16:13

Ah, yes, okay, right, so for us it's like chaos in the house. It's money. We really want her to attend her classes. So if you don't attend your classes and you don't get any spending money for the weekend, we don't give extra money because we don't know where it will go if there's chaos. We're really firm about her father, because she's with him right now in new york, that he needs to sleep after 11. You know that needs. Things need to be quiet, just basic agreements on living together, yeah, which she does understand. And then you know we're trying to figure out how to have boundaries around. If she's living with us, she does need to have some sort of support around her addiction and what that looks like is up to her. But we really feel that's essential, including drug testing, although I don't know at this point if she will consent to seeing the results, because that's part of the agency and part of all of that. But that's kind of where we're at around the boundaries and it's the best we can do absolutely you know it's not about controlling her.

Speaker 1: 17:15

You have to be home because you know if you're out too late you could get into trouble. No, it's, you're living in this house. You need to be home because your father, who's working, needs to get up at 5 30 in the morning and needs his rest. So that's why it's about him and what he needs, not about trying to control her, and I think that's been really important.

Speaker 2: 17:33

Yeah understanding of that and full of yeah, that I mean. Yeah, get in the way of that. At times she does yeah well as you know, in her more sober moments you definitely have an experience of her appreciation yeah yeah, well, is there anything else that you want to bring?

Speaker 1: 17:55

yeah, yeah. Well, is there anything else that you want to bring to this? Yeah, I'm just, I think, I think you know. One thing that I always kind of go back to is you know, what is the learning in this for me?

Speaker 1: 18:03

because I really believe that everything in our life you know, as we've learned, but both from all the wisdom teachers really is that that our life is a co-creation absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah and so these things are happening in my life, not to me, but they're happening in my life for a reason I believe, for my growth and for the growth of my family, and I really believe that and I hold tight to that and I, so I look at the situations and so you know, what do I need to learn from this? And I think, right now, what I'm thinking about, I'm learning to detach this idea of radical acceptance. This is my life, this is a struggle in my life.

Speaker 1: 18:52

This is a struggle in my life and I don't need to wish it was different, or regret or it's just what it is.

Speaker 2: 19:02

Yeah, well movement needs resistance. It doesn't take you anywhere, does it? So what happens if we just have that radical acceptance? That's huge.

Speaker 1: 19:15

It doesn't happen in a moment, does you know? It doesn't happen in a moment.

Speaker 1: 19:17

It doesn't mean that you can't take action to shift the direction yeah that things are going in and you can, of course, but in each day, you know, yeah, so I have this. I have this longer term vision of of her healing and of her possibility that I hold on to. Yeah, but in this day, I accept what's going on here and I'm not angry at her for not meeting my expectations and making me feel bad. I'm. I'm seeing it for what it is. Within that, I'm taking the steps that I can that's so powerful.

Speaker 2: 19:53

That's so powerful. You're giving me goosebumps because that's actually really what else can you do, you? You just you're gonna love her. Through it, you're accepting where you are, but you've also got this imagining of all that's possible for her and you hold that, you hold that up. Yeah, I just think that's beautiful what you just shared there. It's kind of like that whole bigger picture. And then, coming back to the problem.

Speaker 2: 20:17

Find that resources you as well somehow. Yeah, yeah. Thank you, katherine, I think. Thank you, terry, that's got to be helpful to so many really. I mean, you're in the eye of the storm and you've been open to to share so beautifully what a blessing you are and what a gift this will be, I hope, for so many people. Thank you, thank you, terry.

Speaker 1: 20:40

Thank you for listening and for your questions. I appreciate it.

Speaker 2: 20:44

You're so welcome and thank you everybody for listening okay, here's the legal stuff.

Speaker 3: 21:06

This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. We are not licensed therapists and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, psychotherapist or other qualified professional. See you next time.