Speaker 1: 0:17

We are Terry Potter and Katherine Borgman-Abeleda, and this is On Navigating the Abyss Parenting Alchemy with Adolescents in Crisis. This is a podcast for parents like us who've struggled to find their way and support their kids.

Speaker 1: 0:35

We're both conscious parenting coaches, certified by Dr Shefali Sabari, and also trauma informed within Dr Gabor Mate and Sadda Ramkhor's approach of compassionate inquiry. Between us, as mothers of young people, we've dealt with a lot depression and anxiety, gender identity exploration, high-risk behaviors spanning acute self-harm, substance misuse and addiction, eating disorders and suicidality, as well as our own personal trauma, as we've struggled to keep both ourselves and our families afloat throughout. So, whilst we always intend to hold these big topics sensitively, we feel it's important to mention up front that our podcast comes with a content warning and could potentially bring forward some emotional triggers for you. Our aim, though, is to shine a light by sharing alternative perspectives with you, some of our own insights as well as concrete tools to help you accompany your young people and to tap into your own inner wisdom and find greater peace throughout this complicated journey. We hope you'll join us.

Speaker 2: 1:59

Hey, terry, hi, good to see you. Good to see you too. Hi, carrie, hi, good to see you. Good to see you too. Yeah, I'm wondering about the conversation that we started the other day around when our children want some time and space from us. Right, I think you were talking about something with your youngest. I think it really resonated with me so many different ages and stages with my daughter about when she really just wanted silence yeah, certainly yeah, and then she'd go off and chat and I was grateful for that, that she had friends to talk to.

Speaker 3: 2:34

But when she would come and really not want to engage with me, and how that made me feel yeah, I think we were talking about them needing space, or you know, we don't often feel that they're appreciative of everything we're doing.

Speaker 3: 2:48

I mean, that's a very common complaint you hear from parents right when they have teenagers. And I was telling you about my daughter. You know she's 14 now and she was always very close to me and you know wanting to engage, and now she definitely wants her space, which is very typical. Sometimes I'll pick her up from school and I can barely get a word out of her. You know it's hard to get her to come down for dinner, or there's a lot of eye rolling and, you know, critique spoken or not, of whatever I am doing or whatever I'm wearing, and so I think you know one thing to remember too is that they are biologically programmed in this age to need to separate from us, and if adolescents didn't have this programming, we never would have left the cave Like they need to separate from us, yeah, and so I think one is keeping that in mind, not taking it personally is important.

Speaker 3: 3:50

And then I know you and I were talking too about. I'd love to hear what you think about how, what we make this mean often.

Speaker 2: 3:56

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 3:56

You know, even us, we feel like oh, we've done so much work on this, we've thought about this so much. You know, we've learned to detach on this. We've thought about this so much we, you know, we've learned to detach. And but still tell me a little bit about how you still feel sometimes when you're confronted with certain responses from your daughter yeah, I've absolutely no idea what I'm about to say.

Speaker 2: 4:18

I'm not sure which one I'm going to choose. Let's say, for example, we've had a weekend of ferrying my daughter around to see friends. By the way, I'm really grateful for all of this stuff because for a very, very long time there weren't friends in the mix, there wasn't a social thing and there was a lot of social anxiety. So there's so much gratitude in this at the same time for me. But let me tell you, you know, even having come from where we've come from to be where we are today, you'd it would be all about that, right? Oh, isn't this wonderful? But sometimes right, sometimes, when you've got up, like every day of the week, to deliver your young person to their place of education, because they haven't been able to get up and get their transport, and then they want to see their friends, and then they want to have people over, and then all you want to do is sit down, maybe kick back, watch a bit of tv and just chill for the one evening of the week that you might be able to do that, trying to take them aside and just have a conversation as if you're speaking to an adult and say something along the lines of like hey, darling, you know I can talk to you like this because you know, adult to adult, I'm in a situation where I'm really tired and all week long I've given all this this much, and I'm really. Now I'm, I'm kind of done, and then the response might be yeah, but what am I supposed to do? Then, you know, and then they've cooked, which is amazing.

Speaker 2: 5:44

I should be so grateful they've cooked, but the stuff's strewn all over the kitchen like no washing up, done, no nothing. And then it's like another room full of crap for me to deal with and I go straight to my pattern of unseen, nobody sees me, nobody's listening. I don't matter, you know, it takes some unpicking to get to that understanding. Now, that's where I'm going with it all. Yeah, but boy, what happens inside of me is you know what the hell? Can't you see me? Can't you see me? And that's all mine. Right, there need to be boundaries and there need to be, like, some things said about that at the right time, in the right tone.

Speaker 3: 6:27

Yeah, I think that's key.

Speaker 3: 6:27

What you said is that, yes, we need to make it not about our own core wounding or our own patterns, our own triggers, and about what's happening in the moment, the moment.

Speaker 3: 6:41

And you're right, we need boundaries and the world doesn't revolve around them, especially when we've struggled so much with our kids to keep them afloat in some cases, keep them alive, keep them moving forward, and then, when they're not necessarily like in crisis mode, then it would feel good to have a little appreciation or just a little understanding that we do matter. You know, we are humans as well, and so it's something that I struggled with as well, I think, with both my daughters you know the younger one, because sometimes I think, because the relationship has been a lot easier and then when I see her pulling away, or I see her pushing back, or you know what I perceive is kind of harsh, then I, immediately I can almost hear this little voice no one, like no one, no one sees you and no one, no one loves you, and I and Mike, I just want to go lay down and rope into a ball. Yeah, and which I, you know I would have before. You know, I know I would have been like you know I'm being mistreated and no one appreciates me. I mean, I had times like that.

Speaker 2: 7:52

Yeah me too, A hundred percent.

Speaker 3: 7:55

And it's normal, it's, you know, human. But now I am able to at least see that happening, I can say, ah, it's that voice, it's that story.

Speaker 2: 8:07

Yeah, yeah, I don't know about you, though as much as I know this stuff. Sometimes there's an explosion before it can to that point, and there's an explosion with my husband and my child and I can just go, oh, what is wrong with you, why aren't you listening to me, what the hell? And then I, after that, outburst, then I will take some time out and then I will calm down and then I will go oh, that's a whole load of mess to go clear up.

Speaker 2: 8:41

But I better start clearing it up, because that was mine right that's the key, terry, right there yeah, and it's hard sometimes to do that, you know, but owning it is something that I've had to learn to do, like coming back into the picture and saying this is really hard for me. But I have to say I don't like the way that I just reacted in that situation and I want to say sorry for that. I didn't want to call it out like that. Yeah, I think she farley describes it is sometimes you, you just vomit everywhere. She's up to you to just sit in that moment and go okay, this is going to be a whole lot of stuff to clear up, yeah, or I can just pause right now and not go there and not do this at all.

Speaker 3: 9:31

And you know what, terry? It's so important to model that, because I've noticed with my daughter she wasn't wanting to help out after dinner. All I'm asking you to do is pick up the dishes and feed the dogs, or whatever, and I remember once I threw something from the kitchen Tupperware, something on the floor, and I really scared her and I was just really angry. And then there's just a moment of like self-judgment, like god, I'm still doing these things or I haven't learned enough, right. But then, like you said, you know I'm I am human and the key is cleaning it up. And then what? What I've noticed, though, is that when she lashes out, or when she's rude or disrespectful, she'll come in and say Mom, you know I'm sorry, that wasn't the way to act. You know it's comfortable for her to do that, because she's seen me do it, and there's no about I don't want to show that I'm vulnerable or that I can be wrong because I lose power. There's none of that, yeah.

Speaker 2: 10:27

Yeah, I have that same experience as well and I'm really grateful for it. I totally get what you're saying with your daughter, how you are able to model that and you're having that experience of her also showing up and unafraid to say, hey God, sorry, you know, and I and I have that same thing happening here and actually we even make light of it, to the point where she will echo back to me some of my most brilliant moments. There's one morning I went into her room and she hadn't got up for college again and I said are you serious? And and something like that. I don't even remember, but every now and again we have a laugh about it, you know that's.

Speaker 2: 11:12

The point is that we go, oh yeah, some days we just get you and these things happen and and we're appreciating the human aspect of it all and how we all get caught up sometimes. Yeah, it's okay if you've got that connection and that relationship where you can come back and go oh man, I just really got properly taken over at that point, and. But you don't lose your point. You know you can still go, but you get why I got to that point right, and it's not your fault, but you do understand what the build-up was, and very often I find the conversations in hindsight, when things are calm and you're not in that situation where you're having a little bit of connection and you can revisit those things and bring a bit of humor to them maybe, but it's a little bit easier.

Speaker 3: 12:11

Yeah, absolutely, and I think you know this. This balance between being aware of what you're bringing emotionally to a situation and, at the same time, and being vigilant about that and knowing when you're making it mean more than what's really at hand, right, yeah, and then you know but the need to have boundaries, right? So, and I think what you said is important is that those boundaries are best enforced not in the moment, not when you've reacted, but after you've been able to repair maybe the next day or that night, repaired the relationship. And then you know, have that conversation like for me it is important that you help out and do the dishes and feed the dogs, because you're getting older and you're able to contribute, and I know you also think it's important and I can't do everything.

Speaker 2: 12:53

We're a team, as a family we're a team. Let's all pull together as you're getting older and taking on a little bit more responsibility. It's necessary. Plus, we all get tired. So it's that give and take conversation, right, and and sometimes, yeah, sometimes establishing what is necessary is it's kind of it's, it's a, it's a movable feast as well, isn't it? And then something else is coming. You've got another set of dynamics happening and you're like, okay, in this situation, here's what we and I'll be the first to admit I let things go Like my daughter's got the responsibility of feeding our dog and our cat when she comes home from college, but I can't remember the last time she did that. So that's a rule I haven't enforced. I can sit here now and go, wow, it's basically helping her find responsibility. And I'm not enforcing, because sometimes we just get tired.

Speaker 3: 13:45

Also, I think you, yeah, Is this something I'm going to? Is this a hill I'm willing to die on? And there are so few of those.

Speaker 2: 13:53

I love that expression. You used that the other day and I think that was really, really important For me. For example, it gets to 8pm and the animals haven't been fed. Now, there's not really going to be natural consequences for my daughter around that. There's going to be natural consequences for my beloved animals. Right? Is this a hill I'm prepared to die on? No, Okay. So how would it be if I were to follow that up with a conversation with my daughter at some point along the lines of, like you know, hey, I've taken on this responsibility. That was yours, which means that you know there ought to be some give and take. What are you prepared to do? But it's a challenge. I'll be honest. We do not have all the answers right now. We've not really nailed down the whole. What are you getting an allowance for? You know what criteria are you meeting for me to give you this money? Teaching values, responsibilities, all that kind of stuff when they're at this age? That's another big conversation. I'm not even sure it's for today.

Speaker 3: 14:54

Yeah well, I think Terry too. When our kids have struggled with mental health issues, the waters are quite murky they are, aren't they? Yeah, yeah and it's something that's worth unpacking, because sometimes I think with my older daughter when I feel like she's really down, it's too much for her, you know, and legitimately. But then what are my expectations?

Speaker 2: 15:16

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 15:18

And it's something I remember I talked to her school about, because there were a lot of kids that were struggling and expectations were so low. So what is the message then that we send to them Is that you're not able, you're not capable. And then sometimes the relationship with them seems so tentative and the last thing I feel like doing is to put my foot down on whatever small thing. It might be, like not giving her any more money to go out and buy a frozen yogurt which he's been at home all day, or you know, whatever it is. We have to look and see each day what seems to make the most sense.

Speaker 3: 15:54

And coming back to this question around, you know how we feel when our kids need more space. They are not responding in a way that feels loving and appreciative. I think sometimes we also then hesitate to create boundaries, to reinforce them for the same reason, because it's so uncomfortable. Those messages of, in that sense, like oh, I know that they're going to react, they're going to lash out or they're going to withdraw, and then, deep down, it makes me uncomfortable because it reinforces that message that they don't love me or I'm not appreciated, and so then I'm not seen, I'm not lovable all of that. You know there's part to this right.

Speaker 2: 16:33

There is another part to this and, as you're saying that, it's really interesting how this conversation has meandered, because what's happened here is coming to recognize why it matters so much to us that we have that connection. We understand that without that connection we could end up right back where we've been, and you know, that's something that puts us in a really fearful state. So it does become really important. So when they're not communicating with us, it's so loaded for us as moms, um, it's so much more than hey, they're just not coming down for dinner, or they're not, just they're not. You know, I just wanted to talk to you, or you know, we're doing all these things and we're giving and giving and giving, you know, and, and you just want to know that that connection is okay and it's really tenuous, isn't it? I?

Speaker 3: 17:28

think that's so true. I feel that so often my older daughter is like everything is about that connection, but I think sometimes there's fear driving that inexpressible kind and easygoing I can be, the less likely she is to harm herself or to go into a dark place. I think that's ultimately what I feel it's a false belief.

Speaker 2: 18:06

It is, it's something, it's our narrative, isn't it? This is old.

Speaker 3: 18:09

Yeah, and I'd love to hear what you've've seen. But I've seen with my daughter that actually, again, she sees that for what it is yes, they absolutely.

Speaker 2: 18:20

We're transparent.

Speaker 3: 18:21

She's trying to make sure that I'm happy, or whatever. And again, that's the message give love lots of love, unconditional love. And you, these are the expectations which I completely believe you're able to fulfill.

Speaker 2: 18:35

Something that occurred to me is it doesn't really matter how we appear to be, our kids see straight through it, right. So I could come and I could have my calm face on, and there is something about faking it till you make it right. I get it Like you really on, and there is some. There's something about faking it till you make it right. I get it like you really. You want to say all the things, but you know that that's not okay. The best you can do is just to walk towards them and appear to exude calm. You can do that.

Speaker 2: 19:03

However, I think it's really important to acknowledge that our kids are so attuned that they will get beyond whatever mask you're wearing and they're going to experience your energy coming towards them.

Speaker 2: 19:18

So there isn't really much we can do unless we are looking at exactly what you've talked about, which is highlighting that I'm having this false belief.

Speaker 2: 19:28

The false belief is that you're not seeing me, you're not appreciating me, all of the things.

Speaker 2: 19:32

Belief is that you're not seeing me, you're not appreciating me, all of the things. Right, we have to tackle that for ourselves and we have to be able to overturn that usurp that you know, get to the get to the underneath of that, which is like, okay, this is coming from a hurt place, this is a very young place in me, whatever that is that we need to do to understand and be in therapy with, because our kids are never going to be a hundred percent okay with us just showing up and saying all the right things energetically. They're still going to shut down because they're not gonna not gonna believe us. I love that. We've gone full circle in a way, and we began speaking about how we feel when our children seemingly shut us out, but they just want space or they don't want to hear us talking and what comes up for us in those moments. And then they very quickly came around to a whole conversation here between us about what we're believing, what we believe is true, and what if we began to question those beliefs.

Speaker 3: 20:35

Yeah, there's a new book by Phil Stutz. His work is based on something he calls the tools and I was reading it and it's very commonsensical. But he talks about life force and I really loved this lens and how he has this pyramid and at the bottom is your relationship with your body. How important it is, you know, whatever that looks like for you, listening to your body, how you're eating, movement. That relationship with your body is so critical to strengthening your life force.

Speaker 3: 21:05

Yeah, and then connection, community. It's like even if you go to lunch with someone that you don't find interesting at all, that connection with human, you know, yep, lunch with someone that you don't find interesting at all, that connection with human who he's talking to? Yep, Yep, just hearing that. You know those relationships. And then, on the topic is the most important is the relationship with yourself that we develop through contemplative practices, through, you know, journaling, through all the different things that we can do to strengthen that relationship with ourself and really trying to understand who we are authentically and what we need and what we want and all those things.

Speaker 2: 21:36

For a long time I lived my life with a kind of metaphorical glass ceiling above my head where I really did not believe that I was the sort of person who did dot, dot, dot or certain things would happen for, and you know, or certain things would happen for, and you know exercise and yoga and healthy eating. You know all of those things. They came under that glass ceiling and part of the work for me has been to question all of those beliefs. I continue to do that, you know, having had some very big breakthroughs pretty recently around all of that. But I'm listening to what we're talking about and I'm remembering hearing plenty of people saying similar things to us along the lines of well-being and taking care of ourselves, and you know it just wouldn't land for me.

Speaker 2: 22:28

So, however, it might help anybody, what are you telling yourself about that? You know, if you are listening to this and you're saying, yeah, I don't have time for that, or if you're saying that's just not for me, I'm not that kind of person, can you pause and write that down in a journal or a piece of paper and look at it on the page, and can you challenge that belief? Maybe go to Byron Katie's the Work, or maybe ask yourself who might I be without that belief, and just imagine it for a bit.

Speaker 3: 23:03

Yeah, absolutely. And I love when Stutz talks about the clients he's had. He says just taking steps towards that, just adopting a few things over time and with the understanding that the research is behind this, yeah Right.

Speaker 2: 23:18

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 23:19

It's not a woo-woo thing. It's based on evidence that this kind of self-care giving your body what it needs yeah, it is connected to our higher level well-being.

Speaker 2: 23:28

I'm so glad you brought that, because, in the end, I think what happened for me is I looked at all of these people, especially when I had a significant health crisis not so long ago. I came across all of these teachings and understandings. I knew I had to change something in my life and I'm like, ok, why am I trying to make this up all by myself? You know, there's a reason why people keep repeating the same things. They talk about meditation, they talk about stillness practice. They talk about meditation. They talk about stillness practice, they talk about exercise, they talk about eating healthily. Why? Why is it the same thing over and, over and over again? I don't have to reinvent the wheel here. I just need to get on board and do it in my own way. And the other thing I wanted to mention we've talked about Byron Katie's work, but another resource which I found extremely helpful in the last year has been James Clear's work. His Atomic Habits book is incredible and he's got an app as well. It's something that I came to use because he breaks everything down into like atomic particles.

Speaker 2: 24:23

So, instead of going to do 30 minutes of yoga, it's like you don't have to do that. Don't make it more than two minutes long. Maybe you just write down tomorrow I'd like to just put my toe on the mat and you've got full permission then to check off your habit. Have yourself a nice little checklist. I enjoy is that, because it's very sort of kinesthetic and satisfactory, but sometimes I will. I'm just going to put my foot on the mat, but nine times out of ten I'll be there and I'll be enjoying the process of yoga. I love that what you're saying about Phil Stutz, and I love his work as well, and the life force pyramid.

Speaker 2: 25:01

I want to just talk about that connection to self part that comes at the very top, because for so, so, so, so long I didn't have that and I I didn't understand really that I didn't have it.

Speaker 2: 25:13

I'm saying it because I believe this might resonate with a lot of people when we're working with our children and we're trying to understand what's happening and people are talking about exercises or about yoga. Let's have your rituals and your self-care. They were just words to me for so, so, so long, because I did not have that connection and what I mean by the connection. I connected in my head. I knew that all of these things were logically 100% true. I understood you know I'm smart enough, wise enough to understand but it wasn't hitting my heart because I wasn't connected enough to myself to feel how good that might be, and I had beliefs. I'm not that kind of person. That's for other people, that's not for me. And so it took a lot for me to come to that point of reckoning and realize I am that kind of person and it is everything that I want.

Speaker 3: 26:12

Yeah, I think, terry, that that's true for so many people, and I love that you brought that up, because I know I have friends and you know we talk about a lot of these ideas and either it's a sense that those things they're not for me or, more often, that they don't work for me.

Speaker 2: 26:28

Yeah, I mean we tell ourselves all sorts of things like that's not for me you know.

Speaker 3: 26:33

what I'd love to hear from you, too, is what are the concrete practices that you do and we know there's so many, but you know what do you do, what are the tools you use when you find yourself responding or reacting from that younger self or that part of you?

Speaker 2: 26:49

Yeah. So we always come back to pausing, don't we? We always come back to taking that time in between the stimulus and response, but also repair we've talked about as well, which is crucial. There's always an opportunity for repair. I mean preferably the sooner the better. But if it's weeks later and you suddenly go you know I could have done that differently hey, why don't you bring a conversation about it? So that's been really helpful for me. You know I could have done that differently. Hey, why don't you bring a conversation about it? So that's been really helpful for me.

Speaker 2: 27:14

But in terms of how I handle things for myself, I have rituals, I have practices. I wake up early in the morning now I didn't do this for a very long time, but I do now and I will go to my yoga mat and I will meditate and I will journal and I journal. It all comes out anyway and like I start off with I'm thinking dot, dot, dot, and then it's all out there and it's like I look at a paper and go, wow, god, I'm really upset about how, for example, how downtrodden I've been, how, how manipulated, how, how used, how unseen or unheard. And when you see it on paper, I'm like, wow, terry, you're really having a pity party. What's really going on, what might actually be true? And then I start to question my beliefs and then and then I will take myself to the work you and I both trained in, but also something as simple as Byron Katie's four questions in the work.

Speaker 2: 28:15

I'd suggest that to anybody you know. Just get your beliefs down on paper, begin to question them, turn them around, get some fresh perspective. Those are the things that help me. How about you?

Speaker 3: 28:28

Likewise, I'd make an effort to get up early every day and just have a space for contemplation, which always looks different. That space is so important, Journaling, similar to you getting at the beliefs. What am I believing about this?

Speaker 2: 28:41

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 28:42

Right, and then, turning it around, there's all these great, great questions like how would I feel without that belief?

Speaker 2: 28:48

Absolutely.

Speaker 3: 28:50

Right.

Speaker 2: 28:51

I think what I'm getting from this conversation is there isn't a prescription for sensitive children, young people like our own, and when we're parenting kids that have been through so much, Because there are developmental milestones right which are out there that we're supposed to read and understand and apply to our young people growing up. Well, I don't know about you, but for me they were not happening at the same time and place as a lot of other people's kids. It wasn't going that way. And so for us to apply a one-size-fits-all approach to boundaries and what we should expect from our kids at a certain age and teaching them autonomy and agency, I think, listening to you and having this conversation, it's really important to just honor the fact that we take each moment at a time, we choose the tools and we discern every step of the way.

Speaker 3: 29:52

Yeah, absolutely. I love that. I know from the last 10 years with my daughter. There was so much spoken, unspoken critique about not having strong enough boundaries, about why I, you know, wouldn't take a firmer hand or take more radical action. And we did take the medical action, but even more so when all these things were going on spoken and unspoken.

Speaker 2: 30:14

Where was that coming from?

Speaker 3: 30:16

well, just from schools, even friends that love me and I love dearly, they just can't. They can't understand. But my kid, while she's so capable, she is built differently. Her nervous system is different, she is wired differently and I've had to learn and you know we were talking about this earlier, terry for her, this idea of sovereignty and her agency in her life is so crucial. It's probably the most important value for her, and if she doesn't have it, then no changes will come about, right, right. So it's really like you said, just being observant and understanding. You know the young person that you have in front of you.

Speaker 2: 30:59

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 31:00

So key takeaways from this episode. Number one your child's behavior is biologically driven. They are hardwired to separate from us and their reactions and their responses have little to do with us. Two beliefs what are you believing about the situation that may need to be shifted and really keeping an eye on what you make? Things mean, yeah, that have more to do with you than what's really going on in front of you.

Speaker 3: 31:27

Repair Three it's so important to make sure that you make time for repair, for the integrity of the relationship and for modeling around what this looks like. It doesn't give you less authority or transparency. What is the message we're sending around how we enforce boundaries or don't with kids that are struggling, and are we sending them a message that they're broken and they can't meet expectations? Number five the importance of strengthening our life force is critical for good parenting, and as part of this, we looked at Phil Stutz's pyramid, which breaks down life force by three areas. At the bottom, we have a relationship with our body, food, exercise, followed by connections and relationships and finally, at the top, most importantly, our relationship with ourself. Number six what type of person do you think you are? Is there an identity that you're hanging on to, that's getting in your way, that you might need to shift. We talked a little bit about, for example. I'm not a person who exercises. I'm not a person who eats well. Is that something that you can work with?

Speaker 2: 32:42

Yeah, what a great conversation. Thanks, catherine.

Speaker 1: 32:45

The legal stuff this podcast is presented solely as a substitute for the advice of a physician, psychotherapist or other qualified professional. See you next time.