SPEAKER_00: 0:12

We are Terry Potter and Catherine Fortman Abeleda. And this is On Navigating the Abyss, Parenting Alchemy with Adolescence in Crisis. This is a podcast for parents like us who've struggled to find their way and support their kids. With both Conscious Parenting Coaches, certified by Dr. Shafali Sabari, and also trauma informed within Dr. Gabomate and Satan Corps' approach of compassionate inquiry. Between us, as mothers of young people, we've dealt with a lot. Depression and anxiety, gender identity exploration, high-risk behavior spanning acute self-harm, substance misuse and addiction, eating disorders and suicidality, as well as our own personal trauma, as we've struggled to keep both ourselves and our families afloat throughout. So, whilst we always intend to hold these big topics sensitively, we feel it's important to mention up front that our podcast comes with a content warning and could potentially bring forward some emotional triggers for you. Our aim though is to shine a light by sharing alternative perspectives with you, some of our own insights, as well as concrete tools to help you accompany your young people and to tap into your own inner wisdom and find greater peace throughout this complicated journey. We hope you'll join us. Very generously agreed to show up with such a big heart for the work that is helping young people and parents connect with each other. Thank you so much for being here and Catherine as well. So I just wonder if there's anything you would like to say before we start to bring some questions.

SPEAKER_02: 2:24

Yeah, I just want to say I'm grateful for this opportunity. And I think a lot of the questions I feel pretty comfortable answering them because I've gone over those questions a lot being in the mental health industry.

SPEAKER_00: 2:35

Yeah, I think your perspective is going to be so valuable, honestly, because your mom and I have done a load of training and tried to figure this stuff out as parents. But the fact of the matter is there's only one expert in all of that, and that's you. You are the person that knows all about you though, right? Yeah. Can I throw the first question at you? The first question is a pretty big one, but what do you wish that parents generally could understand about teenagers, young people that are struggling with their mental health issues and things that often we parents would miss?

SPEAKER_02: 3:12

I'm gonna give two answers to this question because what parents should understand more about this generation. In general, people just need to be more aware about social media. There are a lot of parents that go through their kids' phones or don't get their kids' phones until they're older. And I think there's only so much parents can do. We just need to push more for these companies to fix the algorithms because all these algorithms are intended to show you exactly what you want to see. And if you're a troubled kid, you're gonna want to see things that aren't great for you. And there's just so many kids that fall into all types of rabbit holes, like kids that might not even struggle with mental illness. I think parents just need to be more aware of how toxic this society is, especially in the US. There's so much capitalism and the distraction, and a lot of people seem to be very comfortable spending their time doing things that they won't even remember, like watching scrolling on your phone for hours. And there's research that has come out where you can scroll on TikTok for three hours and remember maybe two or three things that you watched. And just the glamorization of harmful behavior has always been around. But I think now because of social media, it is so much more extreme and everyone has access to things like self-harm and drug abuse. I was glamorized before, but not even close to the extent that it is now. Yeah, I think parents also just need to be aware that one of the most important things is to have your kid feel safe talking to you, for your kid to feel safe going to you when things happen or when they feel certain ways or when they want to do certain things.

SPEAKER_00: 4:43

When you were talking about the access that there is for young people, and I describe it as the world just got too big too quick, right? It's just access to everything where if somebody wants to know how to hurt themselves, they can find out how to hurt themselves, but more so the algorithms and what is arriving. It's just so many valid points in what you're sharing there. It's not all about your kids.

SPEAKER_02: 5:07

Also, there's way less. You know how there used to be stores like Justice and stores that were more like for tweens? There's less of that. Now kids that are like 13 are wearing clothes that adults are wearing. Consumerism and capitalism and social media have realized that it's easier for them just to make things that young adults and teenagers and tweens can wear, which ends up making tweens act older.

SPEAKER_00: 5:27

The scrolling for hours thing is there a message in there for parents in terms of modeling and what we're seeing the older generations doing?

SPEAKER_02: 5:37

How kids are gonna see their parents doing the same thing, right? Yes, and I feel like uh since everyone does it, even if your parents are very anti phones. My family didn't really use their phones at the dinner table and stuff like that. I had pretty strict rules with social media. My daily phone use is usually three hours a day, which isn't insane considering most of the kids my age. There's research that said that kids are more influenced by their friend group than their parents.

SPEAKER_00: 6:06

Yeah, there's a great book that's written by Dr. Gordon Neufeld and Gabor Mate called Hold On to Your Kids. And basically, the story is your kids' peer group is going to become their family unless you step in. I want to circle back to the other thing that you came to, which is meeting your kids where they're at, having that connection, them being able to come and talk to you. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

SPEAKER_02: 6:32

I feel like personally I felt pretty comfortable going to my parents about certain things, especially stuff that a lot of kids would be really scared to go to their parents about. I think there's such a huge impact on the glorification of drug use with social media because it's always existed, but you would have to be pretty deep into drug abuse to start being aware of certain movies or books. Now with social media or with mainstream music like Charlie XX, drugs are just so normalized in a way that I feel like it wasn't as before. It's like banning music or banning media, it never helps. We know that. I think almost every rock star that I've heard of had parents who would not let them listen to rock. But basically, I think it's more just about being open with your kids about it, like knowing what they're listening to and knowing what they're watching, and not in a punitive way, but being like, why do you like this? What resonates with you about this? Just being a more aware, and I know it's what happens when you're when the kid turns 16 and they smoke weed or whatever. I think it's just a kid by kid. It's really situational and parents and other kids to a certain extent. It's just being there for them since they're really young. I cause if there's kids that are like 13 listening to music about drugs and they're obsessed with the whole thing, by the time they're 17, they're gonna be doing a bunch of other shit. But if the parents are like, oh, but what's going on? Sometimes it's inevitable, but at least even if it does end up happening, that kid still can rely on their parents. I was in situations where I did have to go to my parents about different people and stuff like that, and I always felt pretty comfortable. But then when it comes to stuff like stuff that no parent, very few parents are gonna condone, like drug use or self-harm, anyone's gonna hide that from their parents. When I wasn't able to hide it because I just wasn't, or they found out it harmed the safety I felt going to them about other things. What are you gonna do if your kids are doing that?

SPEAKER_00: 8:31

Yeah, I hear you. And I just want to thank you as well for just being so open. As you were talking about it, what would make the difference in terms of being able to go and talk about those things that are hidden under so many emotions? Uh, the fear of being able to share something so vulnerable. What is the message for parents?

SPEAKER_02: 8:53

I would say to just try to talk to your kids completely openly, not judgmentally, and not trying to manipulate what they're saying or give your opinion about it or frame it any type of way. Like, I think a lot of kids just want to feel heard and understood. And only a few parents can really understand their kids. Takes time, but you don't need to understand someone to empathize with them. Also, another thing I would say is I think it's so insane the amount of parents who have kids without dealing with their own trauma or looking at how that's gonna affect their kids, or even if they should have kids, just in general, other people I know.

SPEAKER_00: 9:36

But honestly, I could put myself in that category.

SPEAKER_01: 9:38

I just want to say, yeah, too, is that no one told us that was important. There was never you had to be caring and learn communicating with your kid and make sure that the basics were in place, but no one ever said in order to really guide your child, you have to deal with your trauma, big T and little T trauma. You have to deal with your own patterns and your conditioning and the beliefs you have about what it means to parent and be a mother and to raise a quote unquote successful child. We didn't do that work.

SPEAKER_00: 10:12

Catherine, I'm just curious, Cara, as well. Do you reckon that your generation and the generations that come after you have better understanding of this when they bring children?

SPEAKER_02: 10:22

Yeah, not everyone, obviously, and also my perception of this is definitely biased because I live in New York City, because of the treatment centers I went to and because I've traveled, and kids I feel like are a bit more aware that the harm that they could cause for their kids. Especially those kids are they weren't treatment, they're more self-aware of their issues.

SPEAKER_00: 10:44

I wonder if we can talk a little bit uh specifically about addiction, would that be okay? If my daughter came to me and wanted to let me know about her drug use, what is it that we're not getting like from your perspective?

SPEAKER_02: 10:59

Yeah, I think that this question applies for kids and adults because very like people don't really understand addiction in general. Right. I think more people are starting to understand that it's a disease, it's not really a choice. But I feel like more parents should be looking at cause to why their kid might be engaging in these behaviors. And I was actually talking about Gabor Mate. I was watching a video that his YouTube channel did on interviewing him, and there's research that was done on California, and there's these 10 things that you can go through as a child that are considered adverse experiences, like sexual assault and neglect. Gabor Mate said that he had never had a female patient that has not gone through sexual assault. An adult male with five or six of these ten things like neglect or abuse is 42-fold the possibility of them becoming intravenous drug users. And that's why I feel like the way that people blame people for addiction is just insane, especially when it's parents, because it's like a lot of those things must have happened during childhood. And I'm not saying me specifically, because I think a lot of my issues, I was the one that went looking for a lot of things, I have to admit that. But the kids in impoverished areas, the kids without resources, the kids that don't have the resources to write books about their experiences or be part of all this research. And I think those kids are the ones that people like to blame the most, like immigrant kids or like I don't know, people that end up uh being drug dealers or people that end up in these types of situations. If you look at their past, I don't think any of us would have ended up not doing that.

SPEAKER_00: 12:40

And it's interesting what you're saying, Kayan. First of all, can I just say I love how well researched and informed you are and the lengths you go to understand this stuff? And when you were talking about that Gabor Mate video, I am familiar with that. I can't remember it exactly. I know what he's talking about. ACES studies, the adverse childhood experiences, right? I was just imagining you going up on stage to talk to Gabor, and he would sit you down, and in two minutes he'd tell you why you didn't have a happy childhood. And I know your mom understands when I say that, because we can all say that, right? Our kids can say it about their childhoods with us, and it's nobody's fault, and there doesn't need to be blame anywhere, but the truth is universal, it didn't start with you, and it's not your fault. And I feel that's such an important message for everybody to take home.

SPEAKER_01: 13:31

Adverse childhood experiences are a huge driver of mental health issues and struggles and addiction. There's no doubt there. And also, there's something to be said about how we come into the world. Our nervous systems. I remember the differences between you and your sister. You were such a sensitive little girl. I remember when you were in preschool, the director said when I worked upstairs, you have to come and take Kai to lunch. You have to bring her to lunch a couple of times a week because she really needs that connection. She saw how sensitive you were, which again, that's another thing I wasn't told. No one told us as a parent that your kids come into the world like they're different, but with really different nervous systems and really different needs in terms of connection and how they feel safe. I wondered what you thought about that.

SPEAKER_02: 14:22

Yeah, I completely agree with you. I've actually talked about that recently. Just the whole DSM thing is very pointless, especially when it comes to kids. A lot of kids just need their parents more. A lot of kids need different things more. And if it's not given to them, it can affect them much more than a different kid. You can't say this is exactly what a kid needs or these adverse things are going to affect them specifically. There are things I've gone through that might have affected someone else very much that I don't even think about.

SPEAKER_01: 14:52

I think if someone had sat down with me and I would listen and said, Look, this is the child you have, and these are what we see as her needs, but we weren't there at that point.

SPEAKER_02: 15:03

But I also don't think you can really know exactly what a kid.

SPEAKER_01: 15:06

You can't know exactly, but you can know more than what I understood.

SPEAKER_00: 15:10

Thanks the question, doesn't it? This human experience, are we even supposed to know? We all end up with a story, and we're all trying to figure out what the story is and why it happened. But but maybe we're just able to meet ourselves and each other with a listening ear, open-heartedly, zero judgment.

SPEAKER_01: 15:27

I think it's an important question, Bruce, because it's so difficult, Kaya. What would you tell other parents whose kids, either minors or young adults like you, that are struggling with addiction? How can they be supportive and what does that look like? I think, at least in my experience, and I know from a lot of parents, is when they're suspecting that their kids are curious about drugs or involved in drugs, it's fear that takes over. Be there for them.

SPEAKER_02: 15:53

Just listen to them and be there for them. But also to the parents, when you do give your opinion, when you do give advice, just that it comes from a place of love and not judgment.

SPEAKER_01: 16:06

My mom does not say things from a place of judgment most of the time, but I know a lot of parents do it's hard to not say things from judgment because judgment comes from fear, and it's hard to let go of the fear sometimes. It's like someone's got their hand around your heart, like you're saying, let's control instead of Kaya saying, which has been important for me and hard too, is okay, tell me about it. Tell me, let's just talk about what's going on, what interests you without fear. What helps is as you're saying, this can unconditional love and listening and seeing the person. I feel like what I've learned from you, you've told me so clearly, like you said, I'm not just my addiction.

SPEAKER_02: 16:46

Because I think addiction is so all encapsulating that you you start seeing yourself as only an addict, and it's important for other people to see you as not only that.

SPEAKER_00: 16:57

There's the shame of the parent because we think it's all our fault, our kids struggling. So trying to get beneath that shame, but then there's also the fear factor because we're terrified, and then you've got the young person that is already feeling like there's something wrong with them, and then they're looking at the parent going, shit, there really is something wrong with me. In terms of the what that your mom and I do, is trying to say to parents it's not about you. Can we meet the young people where they are? What's your daughter saying to you? Can we just listen?

SPEAKER_01: 17:27

I'm curious what you know from your peers and all the people you're in treatment with. What is helpful, like when you see your kid starting to dabble? Some kids it doesn't snowball, and some kids it does. What would you advise parents to do?

SPEAKER_02: 17:42

So I think for me personally, no matter what my parents would have done, I probably would have ended up having issues. And I think for me, part of that is really glamorization, which is honestly pretty pathetic. But apart from the transparency and talking to your kids, I think freedom of choice is really important. Minors are minors, their brains aren't developed and they're not always gonna know what's best for them. A lot of the time because they just want to do what they want to do. But when a kid is at the point where they clearly do not want to stay that way and do want help, or if they're at the point where they've been sent to the psych ward, I think it's just really I don't know, talking to them and finding out what might be the best choice for them, but really taking into account what they think is helpful. And obviously, if their life is in danger, they will need to go to inpatient. I think a lot of kids do need that. The way the industry works, it's for-profit. All those places are connected. I was sent to wilderness therapy. There was only one kid I knew from the wilderness therapy place that did not go to aftercare, and aftercare was a year on top of already three months. So I think that just does not help kids. Every single person I know that has gone to a long outpatient program says that it caused more harm than good. They include a lot of kids with a lot of different issues, and I think mixing really young kids with older kids does not help at all. It's a huge problem. Like when you put a 12-year-old with a 17-year-old and the 12-year-old was self-harming, and the 17-year-old was like doing hard drugs, that's not gonna help at all.

SPEAKER_00: 19:18

Your system is so different from ours, and particularly in the UK, but Europe generally, so it's a completely different setup over there. I'm not saying ours is better or any worse, but these long programs, they're a stretch for us here. For anyone to do that, it's a big deal.

SPEAKER_02: 19:31

Yes, these long programs aren't helpful. However, we have to consider that if they aren't there, the kids are just gonna be sent to state funded programs. And a lot of the kids who come from impoverished backgrounds or do not have the resources to go to better programs are in those state funded programs. A lot of foster kids ended up spending like three months in a psych ward because they didn't have anywhere to go.

SPEAKER_01: 19:55

So it sounds like you're talking about just how the whole at least in the US, I think in Much of the world, but the mental health system is broken down and it's not prepared for what is coming up now. This whole combination of mental health issues and addiction with all the different kinds of drug use. And I'm wondering, you said most of the kids that you knew didn't find these longer-term programs helpful.

SPEAKER_02: 20:21

A lot of the kids I knew, in their words, it was more harmful than helpful. However, I know I got a lot of tools from those programs, like communication and just awareness on mental health and stuff like that. I don't think I would have gotten that unless I would have gone to those programs. However, I think that the main problem in a lot of those programs is first the hierarchy of levels. Like most programs, if you go there, you start at one level, and then if you go to the next level, you get different privileges, and the next level more privileges. And that causes separation with the kids. And also a lot of those programs push for you to snitch on other kids. If you snitch on another kid, you get the trust from the counselors, which just causes so many issues amongst the kids. A lot of the kids end up feeling lonely and they're labeled as bad kids. Yeah, every single place I've gone to has had a thing where you get feedback from other kids. They would have circles where you would get negative and positive feedback from the people in your group. But if you were the kid that was labeled as the bad kid, you were gonna get a bunch of negative feedback about how you were triggering other kids. The first long private inpatient I went to was wilderness therapy. And I was labeled as the bad kid. I was labeled as the one that was causing issues. I was doing really well. And then I started some sort of relationship with one of the other kids, and that kid was really not okay. That kid kept the knife in their bag, threw boiling water at me, stuff like that insane level of abuse. This staff did not kick them out. They kept the kid there. After that, I decided to fight the kid. I was put on solitary where I had to sit by myself and not talk to anyone for a week. That's why I wasn't allowed to graduate after that happened. Ended up stealing medications from the first aid. And a lot of kids had similar issues, similar situations. I knew this girl who snuck in a music thing so she could listen to music. And after that, her therapist put her on silence for three days so she could not talk to anyone. And especially the programs that are in the South or in more real conservative areas, the way they would treat people of color or people from different backgrounds. And the only time I ever experienced any sort of, I don't know, prejudice or whatever was in programs. I was told to stop speaking Taco Bell. I was called a beaner. I can imagine the kids that it did hurt. It didn't hurt me as an aspect of my race, or it hurt me because I felt like I was an outsider. It was not healthy, and I cannot even imagine how hard it was for kids that that weren't white. It wasn't only the kids. There was actually a staff member. She was really close. She was my mentor. And she one time came to me and she was like, These staff members told another kid, he was like, Stop saying you're triggered. That's for pussies. A staff member at one of the most expensive wilderness programs in the US.

SPEAKER_00: 23:00

Wow. Can I ask, has there ever been a moment in all of that that stands out for you as a time when you really felt that you were seen and that somebody really got you or understood you?

SPEAKER_02: 23:12

Yeah, that staff member, the one that came to be. I felt like she understood I wasn't a bad kid. Like all these people were labeling me. I don't know. How did that seem to you? What was that like? I remember feeling really understood by her. And then more recently, than Cyprus, and there was this one therapist he was this Italian guy, and he was living there and he was my therapist. I don't know, being outside the United States finally in a program, it was less like based on the DSM. It felt more supportive, it felt there was more understanding.

SPEAKER_01: 23:42

And I remember something, and maybe this is problematic too, but as we know, healing happens in connection, right? In relationship. We don't heal on our own. And so this Italian therapist that I also had the opportunity to meet, he always said he loved you.

SPEAKER_02: 23:56

Yeah, yeah. No, no, that was sweet. The only reason it had a negative effect is because he left.

SPEAKER_00: 24:01

I'm hearing initially, though, that you got time with him. There was more time to connect, to get to know you and actually have sponsored.

SPEAKER_02: 24:10

I think it just helped a lot of the staff that were younger were more understanding. There was a lot of kids that I was close to in different programs. And there was a group of kids in one of the programs that we ended up creating for the kids. That was a nice route. We were supported by the program to do that. And then I later found out that they said they couldn't do it anymore. The head of that place ended up telling one of the girls because two of the girls in that group were Asian, they would call each other the Asian slur, but it's a joke because they were both Asian, it's like reclaiming it or whatever. The head of the place put them on silence for a week and separates them from the group because they were bonding over their ethnicity.

SPEAKER_00: 24:47

Like that you've come across a lot of examples of people just really abusing their positions. It sounds to me and also people not knowing how to own their shit.

SPEAKER_02: 24:59

Yeah, just being ignorant, blatantly ignorant and not prepared, not educated enough to be in those positions.

SPEAKER_00: 25:04

I'm sorry that all of that stuff's happened for you. You have this vast experience of demographic across society. Some of the things that you witnessed and seen. Are there any moments that stand out where people did something helpful for you?

SPEAKER_02: 25:17

Some of the therapists I had were good. The wilderness therapy place was in the middle of the woods in Georgia. It was gorgeous. That feeling connected to nature was helpful. And I don't know, some of the communication things really helped me because I'm a pretty defensive person and I can be a bitch. In like a lot of places, it just helped me humble myself. Hearing a lot of the stories of abuse that some of these kids had gone through, especially in the places that weren't private, made me more aware that that I had a pretty good upbringing. I always knew that, but just more of a part of growing up too. Pretty recently was when I started to understand more of why a lot of people don't believe in diagnoses or just don't agree with the way they're given. And it started with me because I was diagnosed with certain things when I was younger that people I know now were diagnosed with, but now their diagnoses are completely different. Not all diagnoses are permanent. When you diagnose someone when they're like 14 and they cling on to that diagnosis, and they're like everything I'm doing is because of this. Your brain isn't fully developed at 14. By the time you're 25, you're gonna be a pretty different person. And I think diagnoses can be really helpful too. For me, they were helpful in the aspect of like understand what's going on with me. And I was able to, I don't know, do more research. I was not really on medications, but I know how medications have helped some people, and I understand it's like a necessary evil in a lot of ways, but people don't really take into consideration the effect that your race, culture, language, background, the trauma you've had, or even the trauma your parents have had, or how stressed your mom was when you were pregnant. All this stuff can severely affect your mental health. It's not like you can just put someone into a box because they have certain symptoms. The way a lot of these mental illnesses were created, which they were testing on average white men in the United States. So it's like clearly a guy that's like 45 and has depression is gonna be completely different than a 16-year-old girl who has depression. It wasn't until a few years ago that being gay was in the DSM, like being transgender was in the DSM. So clearly we have a long way to go.

SPEAKER_01: 27:33

And the other thing I wanted to mention that I think was important is that you emphasize the role of free choice and kind of agency in your process.

SPEAKER_02: 27:42

I'm hearing that some programs treat your rights as a privilege.

SPEAKER_01: 27:46

What is the impact of that on kids, you think?

SPEAKER_02: 27:51

A lot of kids, especially the kids that are labeled as bad, they leave, they get home, they do everything they weren't allowed to, just because you tell a kid no, they're gonna want to do it. A lot of kids I know got worse after these programs. Did things that would be considered more extreme.

SPEAKER_00: 28:03

How do you take care of yourself, like when things get too much? Do you have any rituals or do you have any go-to practices or anything?

SPEAKER_02: 28:11

The healthy ones are just music and being with my partner. And I like going on walks. I'm gonna start running again. I used to run a lot. I used to be able to run like an hour. The most I used to run was like an hour and a half without stopping. I did a lot of exercise when I was younger. I believe we want to do things that our ancestors did a lot. I like hiking and walking. I have ancestors in Colombia, and that's a big part of walking and hiking was a huge part of living in Colombia. My dad was living in the jungle in Colombia for some time, and he hikes really well. I remember when I was in wilderness therapy, I would pick up because we couldn't keep moving if kids wouldn't move. So I'd literally put their stuff on my bag and just keep going so we could get to the place we had to get to.

SPEAKER_00: 28:52

Wow. And I hear you talking a lot about nature as well. You've circled back to that again, which is so powerful, isn't it? Just being around the elements. Yeah, it is. Well then what about anything that you might recommend to other young people that are going through some of the things that you've gone through if they're currently struggling and they can't see the light and they don't feel like they can reach out.

SPEAKER_02: 29:10

Yeah, I think it's really important to remember that we're not alone. A lot of people are struggling like we are, but you just have to wait and you'll find either someone that you love, as in romantically, or a friend that you can really trust. I don't particularly believe that it gets better, but if you get older and it becomes easier to deal with things and life goes up and down, you're sometimes gonna be miserable, you're sometimes not. But I don't really like when people are like, oh, people are going through terrible things, so I should be grateful for what I have. But at the same time, I try to remind myself that I'm so lucky. Like I'm so lucky in so many ways.

SPEAKER_00: 29:49

Do you feel it? Because it's one thing, isn't it? We tell ourselves these things sometimes.

SPEAKER_02: 29:52

Yeah, no, I feel very lucky.

SPEAKER_00: 29:53

What helps you to connect to it?

SPEAKER_02: 29:54

I don't know. I just think because the way my life is going right now, there's a lot of changes, and I just feel like I'm at a place that I wouldn't choose to be anywhere else. I wouldn't choose to move anywhere else if I had the choice right now. Even if I was given a million dollars, just I would yeah, I would move to a nicer place, but I just did I would keep the life I have right now.

SPEAKER_00: 30:15

Okay. So what brings you hope? What brings you hope for this next generation?

SPEAKER_02: 30:20

Is there anything for the world? That's a really hard one. For the world, I have to say, I do think kids now are more open and are less like shocked by things and fear less because we're exposed to so much. Yeah. And I also feel like just people being more accepting of the LGBTQ community, even people who are conservative. I feel like I know girls that are Republicans and openly lesbians, and that's pretty cool. As time goes on, hopefully that's just gonna keep getting better. I have hope in this generation because I feel like there's so much less shame. People just say what they want to say more often. There's less, I don't know, more opinionated in ways for the better or for the worse. But that gives me hope. And hope for myself. I'm starting college and that gives me hope. I know that I have something to give the world. I know I'm good at writing, and I have all this knowledge. I want to write a book, and I know I'm gonna end up doing something, and it's not that I don't have fear, but the fear I had has diminished a lot just because I've been able to keep myself safe in a lot of ways, and I think things finally feel more safe than they did for a long time. And also just my relationship gives me a lot of hope. But yeah, and being here, I don't know, I talk about these things all the time with my friend and my partner, but being here makes me feel more confident, and yeah, just I feel like I trust myself much more.

SPEAKER_00: 32:04

Can I just say that what gives me hope was you? And I really mean that. I listened to you showing up here and saying all the things, and I know there's so much more that you could say. Just the idea that you are speaking to and for so many people, so many people that you've met along the way, so many experiences that you've had, different versions of yourself, and the way you speak with your mom, and the way that you guys have traveled this together, and separately. You give me hope because you're here talking about all of this stuff, and people generally aren't. I just feel like people can start having real conversations about things without fear in the way and just saying the things that really matter without a filter. Sounds amazing.

SPEAKER_01: 32:51

Is there anything else you wanted to share? You want people to know?

SPEAKER_02: 32:54

I want everyone to know that we're much stronger than we think we are. Life today is difficult. I think no matter who you are, it's difficult.

SPEAKER_00: 33:08

Yeah. Catherine, is there anything you'd like to say before we close with that?

SPEAKER_01: 33:12

I adore you and I admire you so much. And I I'm very proud that you're my daughter. That's all I can say.

SPEAKER_00: 33:20

Thank you so much, Kaya.

SPEAKER_01: 33:22

We shall close this one by everybody.

SPEAKER_00: 33:25

Take care.