Speaker 0:01

We are Teri Potter and Catherine Borgman-Arboleda. And this is On Navigating the Abyss: Parenting Alchemy with Adolescents in Crisis. This is a podcast for parents like us who've struggled to find their way and support their kids. We're both conscious parenting coaches, certified by Dr. Shefali Sabari, and also trauma-informed with Dr. Gabor Maté 's approach of Compassionate Inquiry. Between us, as mothers of young people, we've dealt with a lot: depression and anxiety, gender identity exploration, high-risk behaviours spanning acute self-harm, substance misuse and addiction, eating disorders and suicidality, as well as our own personal trauma, as we've struggled to keep both ourselves and our families afloat throughout. So, whilst we always intend to hold these big topics sensitively, we feel it's important to mention up front that our podcast comes with a content warning and could potentially bring forward some emotional triggers for you. Our aim, though, is to shine a light by sharing alternative perspectives with you, some of our own insights, as well as concrete tools to help you accompany your young people and to tap into your own inner wisdom and find greater peace throughout this complicated journey. We hope you'll join us.

Speaker 2 1:32

Hi everyone, welcome back to On Navigating the Abyss. This is Catherine, Teri is out for a couple weeks. So I'm going to share this very honest interview I did with my daughter Caya, which follows up on our last episode with her. And we discuss her recovery and what's been important to her and what we've both learned along the way that we hope will be useful to other parents and young people. So we're here again following up on Caya's last podcast episode. And there have been a few changes in her life, which she's going to tell us about. And we're just interested in hearing perspective on recovery and sort of any insights that she might be able to share with other young people and with parents that are also on this journey. Do you want to start and just kind of share a little bit about what's happened with you and where you are?

Hospital Crisis Forces A Turning Point

Speaker 1 2:22

Yeah. So I'm currently at a hospital. I got a hip infection, a joint infection, which is pretty terrible. And I think it was a blessing in disguise because it has forced me to get clean. If it would have been my parents that made me, I wouldn't have gone through with it. But it was like the universe telling me that it was time to change my ways. And yeah, I've been here for almost a month. And I'm gonna be leaving soon and going to a rehab program.

Can Parents Force Treatment

Speaker 2 2:55

Yeah, Caya, we're just so relieved that you're okay. And I just want to say thank you really for your willingness to share. You know, so often we hide our struggles with addiction and mental health. And I think your willingness to bring your own experience into the light is is really so important in showing us that it's not something to be ashamed about, but it's just part of being a really sensitive human in a complicated and pretty toxic world. So I have a question for you. So I think a lot of times when our kids are young adults, or really even when they're minors, we struggle with how much we should force them to do things for their own good, you know, particularly when it has to do with their struggles with mental health or addiction. And we see them putting themselves in danger, and it's hard to know what to do. And I know you said before that there's this need for everyone to be autonomous and have agency in their lives in order to heal, to recover. Sometimes, I don't know, maybe we're not able to make the best decisions for ourselves. It's a difficult balance, I think. And I just love to have your thoughts on that.

Speaker 1 4:07

I agree. I think you can't force a kid to want to get sober. You can take certain things away from them, but I really don't think that motivates them. Especially in my situation, I think the more my mom took for me, the more I wanted to rebel and not myself. No, that's not and I understand for parents, it's so hard to like see your kid destroying themselves and not intervene. And I'm not saying you shouldn't intervene at all, but I think you can't force anyone to get clean. That's just their decision at the end of the day.

Speaker 2 4:47

What what's interesting you say that because sometimes those nights when I I was really worried about you, and sometimes I would be scrolling on Instagram and I'm in all these recovery and kind of Instagram accounts for advice for parents or for family members. And while there's increasing understanding of, as you say, the need for not losing connection and letting people find their way, there's also like a whole group of experts that say you really need to leverage and do everything you can to force your loved one into treatment because they won't do it on their own. And once they're there, then they'll see the light and decide to be sober. Which hadn't worked for us in the past. That's not how that works.

When Pressure Helps And When It Backfires

Speaker 1 5:35

I disagree completely. I think if anything of forcing a kid into a program and then expecting them to midway just have an epiphany and realize that what they were doing was harming themselves. Very few times, unless their addiction is at that point where it's like absolutely horrendous and they do not want to be there anymore. Like I was at the point where I wish I could have just skipped the withdrawals and gotten clean, but you can't skip the withdrawals, and that's what keeps so many people stuck in that place. If you're at that place, then yes, I agree that you should quote unquote force your kid into a program, even though no one wants to be forced to go through withdrawals. But I think if they're clearly at that point where they want to be better, but they just can't, then I would agree that's the best option for them is to not have say over that. Because obviously no one wants to go through excruciating pain for four days. And sometimes you need someone to just make that decision for you because you know it's what's best for you. But if your kid is not addicted to opiates or addicted to benzos, because I know those two are the ones that caused the worst withdrawals. I don't think you can force your kid to get clean. I don't at all.

Speaker 2 6:53

So benzos are like Xanax, right?

Speaker 1 6:55

Yeah, yeah, Xanax, and I don't know, clonalocepam and fluorosopam, all those anything that ends with PAM is usually a benzo.

Speaker 2 7:04

So you're saying that basically, like when you were a minor, you weren't in a dark enough place or an uncomfortable enough place where if you'd have been just moved into the right situation where you could detox and you would have been relieved and wanted to move forward on that path. Yeah. Yeah, but you say that, and I know before this happened we talked about it, and there's times when, you know, I even said, let me take you to the emergency room. Yeah, and I'm I'm curious, I guess, what was holding you back from taking that step.

Speaker 1 7:32

Yeah, it wasn't just the withdrawals. I also just think it didn't get to the point where it was just so scary. Like infections are like the fact that the reality that I could have never walked again is so horrible, this dark reality. And there's just no way up from where I was. I'm not a person who could have tapered off myself, and I thought I could for some time, but then I realized I couldn't. And I don't know what way I was going at that point. I think I thought I could just keep going. I think I had to get to that place to just hit that rock bottom of not being able to walk and just having to be locked up in the hospital, and doctors weren't gonna let me get out of here, and things just worked out the way they did. I'm not saying addiction is a choice, but it is your choice to get better. And I don't know, I think it's hard to describe, to say, I think it's all individualized, I think it's all case by case, there's not like a solution, and there's not a path that people should definitely go on to help their loved one or help themselves. But I don't know. I think for me, I told myself I wasn't ready to get clean for so long that I went on for like almost two years, like consistently using insane amounts of substances. And I think I was ready, and I what did have the strength after a while. I just I I wasn't able to be sober for enough time, like even a week, to let my mind reestablish itself and see that strength and see those abilities and that intelligence. And I think going to school and getting good grades for the first semester actually did help show me that I could do hard things, even under the influence of drugs. And that was a double-edged sword because in my mind it was like, oh, I can do it while I'm using. But that also told me, oh, if I can do hard things while I'm using, that also shows me that I'm just a strong person, period. And if I was able to do that, then I can get sober. Because passing algebra one when I'm terrible at math in the first place while using substances is an incredible amount of strength, which means I can just stop using substances.

Speaker 2 9:47

Really? Yeah, I love that. And I think it was so important because we were thinking, like, why are we even gonna pay for college? Like, how on earth could she even continue?

Speaker 1 9:56

But I didn't work right, you did.

Money Boundaries And Staying Connected

Speaker 2 9:58

But at least I had this internal dialogue. Why am I even paying for something when or it's gonna be thrown away? Yeah. Like, why won't we just wait till she gets sober to help her? I know what you mean. We could have said, I'm not gonna pay for college until you're sober. We could have said, I'm not gonna pay for your apartment until you're sober. I could have said, I'm not gonna pay for your food until you're sober. And some parents do. And I think we could have done that. And there are people that said that to me. What are you doing? Well, how is she affording her rent? How is she doing this? And I said, one, we had an agreement that we would pay for your rent if you would go to school. And you didn't. And I didn't feel like backing out on that. And also part of me instinctually felt that if you had something that you could do that you enjoyed and that was meaningful to you, that would help you in some way towards your And I think I did.

Speaker 1 10:50

I think it honestly did. And I think sitting at home doing nothing all day would have been much more harmful. And I think if you would have stopped paying my rent, that would have hurt a lot. And I would have understood it completely, but it also would have been angry. I don't know. And why would you have been angry? Because in my mind it would have been like you're making me homeless over something that isn't completely in my control. Yeah.

Speaker 2 11:23

Our relationship, your papa's in my relationship with you changed. If I could remember, like there was always for a long time, there's a lot of desperation just to save you. Yeah. And it's hard, we've talked about this. When your kids are struggling with addiction, there's still some part of you that thinks that they can make better decisions. And so sometimes you're tempted to pull back from them or be angry or somehow blame them for not being able to do better. Yeah. And I wonder too, like how the connection you had with us. And I know Papa really made such an effort to come see you, even though at times it was really hard. Yeah. Because you were an active use and take you out to dinner. And he really valued so much just seeing you because he loves you so much. And and I felt the same way. Like I valued so much being able to talk to you, even though sometimes you weren't clear-headed, which was hard, or seeing you too. And I wonder what that meant to you.

Speaker 1 12:29

It just made me feel like people still cared about me and that I saw that I wasn't just like a the loser in the family. Yeah. I think that's just so important. Especially because you don't know what if that's the last time you're seeing your kid. Like this is a terrible thing to say, but you don't want their life to end feeling like they didn't have anyone there for them. You don't want that way to on you as a parent either. It's not being there for them, and then it's just it's a terrible thing to even think about. But like being cold and being to send a tough love thing doesn't work. That's some bullshit. I think that's complete bullshit. No one's gonna want to get better for someone who's being like tough love on them. You can be honest. I'm not saying you don't be honest. I'm not saying to do things that you're completely uncomfortable with. You don't have to send your kids money if you know they're gonna spend on drugs, and you don't have to even pay their rent if that's what they're doing. But still being there for them, still being an available person that they can talk to is still very important. And if you actually care about the recovery of your kids and are willing to put your needs aside for them to get better, I think just being someone they can talk to is extremely important.

Why Connection Beats Tough Love

Next Steps Rehab Body Healing Ibogaine

Speaker 2 13:52

That was so beautiful, so important. Just to reflect on something you said about how parents can be anger-free or push kids away, and it comes from their own needs. When I think that's important to recognize because you're hurt, you're afraid, and those emotions come out in pushing your kids away or being angry or blaming or whatever. But it's about the parents not being able to really understand what's going on for them and being able to regulate themselves. Because, as you said, if we're really interested as parents in helping our kids heal and helping them move towards recovery and towards a meaningful life, then what we do needs to be in service of that, which is connection, as you said, which is still recognizing your value as a human being. So loving unconditionally, not based on whether or not you're using. Yeah. No, I agree. Another thing I you said I thought was important was parents who can still express how they feel. And I didn't want to treat you like an invalid or like someone that I couldn't speak the truth to. And I think sometimes Papa and I disagree because he was like my little girl or her. Yeah, I get it. And I always felt like she's doing something that's harmful to herself, but she's not broken. Inside is still Caya, who is still my daughter, who is really smart and can handle reality and can handle other perspectives that she may not agree with. So you're in the hospital now, you're getting out soon. And tell me, what do you envisioning for this next stage for you, like when you leave the hospital?

Speaker 1 15:48

So I want to be focusing a lot more on my body and being grateful for my body, and just this whole thing with my hip has made me just really want to go out there and exercise and run. And I'm a really good runner and I miss it. And obviously, I can't run right now, so I'll be exercising in the pool and just getting in touch with my body again. But anyway, then after that or flying to Mexico, I'm going to my program, gonna be there for two months, and then I'm going to do eboga, which is a psychedelic, which helps a lot of people with opiate issues. I'm excited for that.

Listener Questions Coaching Group Disclaimer

Speaker 2 16:29

It'll be interesting to see, and we'll have to have another episode when you can tell us about how that goes. And yes. Okay. Okay. I love you. Love you too. So thank you for joining us for this snippet of Caya's journey, and we hope you found it helpful. Um, and always, if you have any particular questions or topics you'd like us to cover, uh send us a message. Our contact information is in the show notes. And I will also be launching in the next few weeks a small coaching group for moms with teens and young people struggling with mental health and substance issues issues. So please connect with me personally if that would be of interest. Thank you so much, and we hope to see you next time.

Speaker 17:28

Okay, here's the legal stuff. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. We are not licensed therapists, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. See you next time.